Electrical Questions (Lights, Winch, Battery, etc.)

[OdiN]

Planning to add some other stuff to the X soon.

I want to put 4 lights on, but I'm not sure what lights. Can anyone recommend me something that isn't $300/pair :p

I can get some 55W Hella's for pretty cheap, but not sure if I should get higher wattage or not.

Also wondering what types I should go for - two driving lights in the center and two floods on the outsides? Or just regular all around?

Also - there are a couple switches at 4x4parts. One says for 150W, the other doesn't say at all (it's the in-dash style that matches the stock stuff). Is that 150W total or per light? I'm not sure if I want to put all 4 on a single switch or not.

I'm good with electrical stuff and I can wire stuff up pretty good but not sure about the load on the switch, and not sure how exactly to wire for auto stuff. What I want to do is just tie all the lights together on top of the car (or the pairs together depeding on what I want to do) and have some sort of disconnect on the top so that if I want to remove the lights it's easy enough to do. Then wire through the roof and into the dash to hook up with the switch and from there to the battery - will probably need a fuse in there somewhere.

I will be getting an Optima battery. I think that with that, the lights should be fine. In the future I will be getting a winch. At that time I would probably look at a beefier alternator - I think I can get away with the single battery. I also may get a compressor - but I wouldn't be using both that and a winch at the same time I wouldn't think. I'd probably like to get a compressor sooner rather than later. I'd have to check what kind of draw they have.


Yeah yeah lots of crap, just trying to hash things out in my head.

[Mistician]

Hey Andrew, for my X I went with 6 150 watt KC daylighters from autoanything.com, they range from 120.00 to 220.00 per pair depending on power and are crazy bright. They come in a package of two including all wiring, ties, and lighted switches specific for the lights. I'm running all six and a winch on a single battery with my stock alternator and it's worked fine so far. My lighting arrangement was 4 up top on an AC light bar and two mounted on my TJM bumper, I'll honestly never need the sun again ;)

By the way the link for the lights is http://www.autoanything.com/lights/65A3224A0A0.aspx?kc=0&from_search=1

[Eric P]

Stay with low watt switches. You can use one low watt switch to power two or more relays near the battery. This keep the high wattage & noisy lines away from the electronics in the cab.

[DamnHippie]

Yeah, what Eric said ... you don't want the full power for the lights running through the switch in the dash; the switch needs to control a relay.

For batteries, get an optima yellow-top, not red-top, for winch and other high-drain use. The yellow-top is a deep-cycle battery which is what you need for high-current-drain accessories followed by rapid recharging with a high-output alternator. And they have more than enough CCA power for starting in cold winters. Another option is an optima blue-top deep cycle. The only difference between it and the yellow is that it has marine-style stainless steel connections that can be more convenient to work with when adding winch wiring and stuff. The blue-tops come in starting and deep-cycle flavors, so make sure you get the deep-cycle if you go that route.

[PonyBoy]

I have these, and have had no issues. They do however, run hot (150watts) and if you plan to use plastic covers they will melt. You will need to use removable covers if you want them.

https://www.4x4parts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=302_331&products_id=448

They don't compare to HID lighting, but for the price, its worth it imo.

[l1r]

What about a $40 pair from Autozone? Anyone has experience with those lights?

[OdiN]

What about a $40 pair from Autozone? Anyone has experience with those lights?

Yeah I can get Hella 500FF's at WalMart for $65 a pair. I was thinking of getting some of those, but I don't know how they perform. It's not like I'm going to go do crazy wheeling at night - but some places it's nice to have extra light for seeing wildlife, etc.

What would be a good relay to use? The kit with those Hellas comes with a relay, but I'd have to use two total. I need to see if I can find a single one that would work.

Where would I put the fuse? In-line to the lights? Before/After relay?

I also would like to put two smaller lights up top facing rearwards. The reverse lights DO NOT provide anything good where there isn't any other light source. Some small rectangular ones facing down a bit.

[l1r]

Yeah I can get Hella 500FF's at WalMart for $65 a pair. I was thinking of getting some of those, but I don't know how they perform. It's not like I'm going to go do crazy wheeling at night - but some places it's nice to have extra light for seeing wildlife, etc.



which, IMHO, is the reason $65/pair is a deal. You can't drive with those lights on a road, so you might only end up using them 5-10 times a year. $200/pair just seems too excessive for lights for me.
Hella's at walmart, huh? I guess I need to look at them some time.

I also would like to put two smaller lights up top facing rearwards. The reverse lights DO NOT provide anything good where there isn't any other light source. Some small rectangular ones facing down a bit.
A bit of a road rage there? Blind the hell out of tailgaters!

[OdiN]

lol yeah that would be funny to use against tailgaters.

But no backing out of Kev's driveway over the 4th I realized how shitty the view is with just the regular reverse lights. They don't do jack.

[Jeff Conner]

I installed a pair of Hella 500's on my sister's truck and they work well for a 55w light. They reach out much further than the stock hi/low beams. Definitely not as bright as some of the 100+ Watt lights I've seen, but like l1r said, you won't get to use them much unless you're on a deserted road, or even when night wheeling only the guy in front of the pack can turn on an array of lights...

[OdiN]

Well I picked up 4 Hella 500FF lights.

Also I got 48" of 2"x2" 1/8 angle iron from home depot. I've got to hack off 10" of it and then notch out 2" of each end.

With some grinding and finishing it should look nice. I'm going to round off the corners and paint it flat black.

I hate sloppy wiring so I'm going to get some wrap for the wire to make it look nice. Going to drill extra holes along the way to accomodate zip ties.


Anyway - my main question is on the wiring.

The lights came as a set 2 boxes of 2 lights. There is a relay included.

To wire these up - what am I going to need to do?

I want to run all 4 off of a single switch. I believe the included relay should handle all 4 as it's a 40A relay, and these are 55W lights. Ohms law puts that at about 4.5A per light, total well under 40A (Assuming 12V, could be a bit higher, but should be enough room to work with). Then I run power from the battery to the relay and from there to the lights. and from the relay to a switch on the dash?

Also - can I just use one positive and one negative wire and have all of the lights connect into that single line?

I'm assuming it's similar to a computer as it's DC power.

The lights came with a wiring harness that the relay plugs into on the end. It does have a fuse in-line on the power wire. However, it's only a 15A fuse.

Also the wire looks to be 14 gauge which I'm not sure is enough for all of the lights.

I also want to add 2 more lights in the rear later but they can probably go on a different relay or whatever and they will be a different switch.


But right now I'm going to go shoot some pool.

[DamnHippie]

Also I got 48" of 2"x2" 1/8 angle iron from home depot. I've got to hack off 10" of it and then notch out 2" of each end.


Eww, so you paid what, about $14 or so for 75 cents worth of scrap steel? I still have a tiny bit of the first piece of steel I ever bought for the truck, 3 feet of 2 x 1/8 bar stock from home depot. I think it cost me $9. At a scrap yard it would have been literally 50 cents.

[OdiN]

I don't know of any scrap yards around here and I'd rather just pick something up than have to drive all over.

[OdiN]

At least I didn't spend $60 at 4x4 parts for it :p

[T-BONE35]

Here is what how i did it this weekend. 2 55watts in the middle and hella angel eyes on the sides.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/6249/imgp0490tt7.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0490tt7.jpg)


I ran my cables throught the rack tube and into the firewall following the A post to the relays that i mounted to the frame (wire constrants ) behind the panel that is under the hood release

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5664/imgp0482bn5.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0482bn5.jpg)
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5195/imgp0483ih9.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0483ih9.jpg)
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2586/imgp0487vj1.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0487vj1.jpg)
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/864/imgp0485rt3.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0485rt3.jpg)
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4112/imgp0492gp5.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0492gp5.jpg)
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6691/imgp0491zd0.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0491zd0.jpg)

Here are some photos of the rack I made. Drew will be getting his done this week hopefully.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4493/imgp0465zk5.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0465zk5.jpg)
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2907/imgp0466be3.th.jpg (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp0466be3.jpg)

[OdiN]

Did you have to drill through the roof or is there already something there?

[T-BONE35]

i drilled a hole next to where the bolt for the foot of the rack was. I taped a spot and just used a metal bit. Very easy. I siliconed the crap out of the hole and cranked down on the torque bolts to make sure it was water tight.

[OdiN]

I've been thinking of trying to find some sort of rubber gasket that I could use and then seal around that.

[T-BONE35]

I figured that the rubber foot pad on the rack tube would ack as the gasket. the factory bolt does not have one.

[dmcminn]

Question - Odin, I saw those same lights at "Wallys" do you think those would be bright enough to throw up top near the basket?

[OdiN]

Well I'm mounting mine up on the top right behind the wind fairing using those two bolts that are already there to secure a bar.

I couldn't really tell you how bright they are until I get them up there and turned on :P

[DamnHippie]

You can sometimes find small rubber sheets (like 6x6 inches) at an ace or true value hardware store, in the plumbing section. They're thin (like less than 1/8 inch) and ideal for cutting out little custom gaskets.

Another thing I've done in the past is to buy some of those really cheap floormats from walmart for a couple bucks and just cut them up.

[dmcminn]

Well I'm mounting mine up on the top right behind the wind fairing using those two bolts that are already there to secure a bar.

I couldn't really tell you how bright they are until I get them up there and turned on :P
you have 4 right? Are they all going up top?: E

[OdiN]

Yup, all up top.

I might angle the left and right ones out a bit.

[OdiN]

And I think I got these relay things figured out... using a BOSCH relay, this is what I think is right for the wiring:

#85 -> Chassis Ground

Battery -> Fuse -> #30

#87 -> Positive to Lights (Not sure if I should put a fuse between...)

Battery -> Fuse -> In-Dash Switch

In-Dash Switch -> #86

In-Dash Switch -> Chassis Ground

Ground on Lights -> Chassis Ground

[Packman5280]

i would switch the - instead of the +, but basically it looks like you have it right. there are a couple reasons to switch the ground, the main one is it's easier to wire your switch since you don't have to run a wire to and from it, just from ground to the switch and then to the relay.

so you would + going from the battery to 87 on the relay, then from 30 on the relay to the lights. ground the lights wherever you mount them. then run a + wire (small gauge is fine) to 85 on the relay. then run a wire from ground, through your dash switch, to 86 on the relay.

[OdiN]

i would switch the - instead of the +, but basically it looks like you have it right. there are a couple reasons to switch the ground, the main one is it's easier to wire your switch since you don't have to run a wire to and from it, just from ground to the switch and then to the relay.

so you would + going from the battery to 87 on the relay, then from 30 on the relay to the lights. ground the lights wherever you mount them. then run a + wire (small gauge is fine) to 85 on the relay. then run a wire from ground, through your dash switch, to 86 on the relay.

The switch has a light - gotta get power somewhere.

[Alex Topousis]

Jamie is right, you should switch the ground. DC electricity runs the opposite direction that you would think. The electrons run neg to pos. Wiring it this way will keep your battery from dying and such. To get the light in the switch to work just run a wire from your fuse box or cigarette lighter to the 3rd pin on the switch

[DamnHippie]

Why does the direction the electrons move (a bit of trivia that's interesting mostly to physicists and people working on a EE degree, I would think) matter to the way you wire the switch and relay? I especially don't see how it would keep your battery from dying ... either the switch is closed and the current flows (opposite to the direction of electron flow, but that's another bit of trivia) or it doesn't. What am I missing here?

[OdiN]

See that's what I'm thinking....but most of my electrical work has been with computer systems and they don't really use batteries like a car does. It's all switched through a power supply and current can only flow when the computer is actually on (minus a small bit supplied to the board while off).

[Alex Topousis]

Why does the direction the electrons move (a bit of trivia that's interesting mostly to physicists and people working on a EE degree, I would think) matter to the way you wire the switch and relay? I especially don't see how it would keep your battery from dying ... either the switch is closed and the current flows (opposite to the direction of electron flow, but that's another bit of trivia) or it doesn't. What am I missing here?

I'm just passing on what I learned in electronics class:D I dont get how it works, if I did I would be an electrical engineer. thats just how it is

[OdiN]

I don't understand how any circuit could cause a drain on a power source when the circuit is not complete - that's what I don't get.

[Alex Topousis]

I think it has something to do with having more area for electrons to fill and the inefficiencies in the wire. that was like 3 years ago... maybe I'm wrong, I'll email my teacher from the class and let you know

[OdiN]

If that were the case, you'd think that the battery would just drain itself as it came from the factory - it's an open circuit when everything is off right?

I'm sure I could be wrong - I'm no EE either, just doesn't make sense is all.

But thanks for whatever info you find out :)

[DamnHippie]

Batteries do run down all by themselves, but not because of how open-circuit wiring is attached to them (but rather because of internal electrical pathways, and chemical reactions).

I'm not an EE, but these days I spend many hours every week reviewing schematics and board layouts done by EEs and suggesting changes to them, so I'm not at all ignorant of electricity. I'm with you on this so far, Andrew -- an open circuit is an open circuit.

[Alex Topousis]

There ya go then

[Packman5280]

if the switch has a light, well, then you gotta use + to it if you want the light to work. I usually just use a standard toggle, but if it comes in the kit, well, there ya go. The wiring i suggested was for simplicity, and to a lesser degree, safety. I say to a lesser degree, because I am not sure why it is safer, I just heard that somewhere.

[OdiN]

Well I got the light bar itself done - drilled and painted it today.

I'll have to get some pics of it.

Now I gotta figure out what I'm going to do with the lights as far as wire routing - get some loom, etc.

[dmcminn]

Well I got the light bar itself done - drilled and painted it today.

I'll have to get some pics of it.

Now I gotta figure out what I'm going to do with the lights as far as wire routing - get some loom, etc.whats the 20 on those pics? - over:D

[OdiN]

Haven't had time - it's still just sitting in my living room.

I picked up some wire loom and stuff yesterday - I may be hooking up the lights tonight at least to see what they'll look like mounted.

Also - does anyone know where I could get some sort of weatherproof quick-disconnect for 10 guage wire?

I've checked all around here at auto places. Have to check out Lowes for some wire/connectors.

I just want something that will make it easy to remove the bar if needed.

[tmorgan4]

I think Napa carries Weatherpack connectors.

[OdiN]

Weatherpack!

Awesome dude, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Thanks!

[OdiN]

So....

18A on 14 Guage wire - is that going to work out okay?

The weatherpack connectors only work up to 14 guage wire because of the rubber pieces that go inside.

I'm wondering if I could rig it up anyway...and just use RTV glue for the outside parts to seal it, and the inside parts are matched anyway so it wouldn't matter.

[DamnHippie]

18A on 14ga is okay as long as the wire's insulation is rated for at least 60C. The insulation temp should be printed on the wire. Here's an ampacity chart for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

If you wanted to be extra-safe, you could make use of the fact that doubling up the wire effectively reduces the gauge by 3. So if you pigtail the 10ga wire to have a pair of 14ga leads, each of which goes through a weatherpak connector, then you've effectively created an 11ga plug connection.

The rtv in place of the rubber fittings sounds like an okay plan too. I had to do that on one of the weatherproof connections on my engine wiring harness because I broke the nissan connector. Haven't had a bit of trouble with it (and I can't pass a puddle or mudhole without splashing through it, so it's certainly been tested).

[OdiN]

I think I can get the 10 guage stuff to work with a little soldering and RTV.

I got a couple extras so I can destroy one if need be haha.

[Eric P]

http://www.pbase.com/sms/image/76980308.jpg