Dowser's SAS Thread

[Dowser]

Alright,

Figured If I'm going to be asking a ton of questions about getting an Axle up front then I might as well have one thread to do it all from too keep track. I am little informed on the subject but trying to get it in my head everything that needs to be done and what will work and what wont. So please be patient, some informative replies would be great if you can and please don't flame my ass unless....unless its constructive flaming.:D

First off, My budget is about $6000 initially, and add more as the Money Tree grows. I want in the end to do the Front and the Rear. What I was thinking of doing in the END, would be a HPD44 up front with a Radial Arm set up, and changing the Rear out to a Spider 9 housing and a Hi9 Third Member. Now before you all start Laughing at the thought of me doing this with $6000. bucks I know that it is Impossible so I plan to do the rear in stages but id like to throw the front in as soon as I can. I'm planning on a ARB locker front and rear and will try and pick up one of those 2 ARB's throw in a Compressor sort of thing. Will be buying the rear ARB as a 35 spline for a 9" but wont be installing it for a while.

For the Rear I was thinking what I would do initially is buy a wrecker regular 9" and pick up a cheap set of gears with the same front ratio to get me by. Will be leaving it open most likely and wont be wheeling much until I get the coin to finish the rear. I Plan on having 30 spline chromo Axles up Front so I'm guessing I'll need something with the same Min/Max diameter in the rear? Not sure if any 9"s came with stock shafts that may work. I know some came with 28 spline ones but I thought i read somewhere they came with some 30-31's or something like that and I'm not sure if the Min/max is similar. If its doable at all, I'd like to pick up some wrecker shafts or would I have to buy something aftermarket? Wanted to basically leave the Rear As is, as cheap as it comes, until I can afford to pick up everything else i need for the second stage for it.

2nd stage would be a Bundle pack of 1. Ring and Pinion for 35 spline,(I want to go 35 spline even though it's overkill just because I may later want a different project then a Pathy and I'd like to reuse the axle.) 2. 35 spline 300M Spider Axles and then throw them into the rear with the ARB i had purchased earlier. If that will even work as I'm not sure of the Tube size on a stock unit and if its the same size as Spider's 3" x 3/8" wall housing to fit their shafts. (again, fairly clueless) Also perhaps I may have that same Min/Max Axle shaft issue as before? If thats an issue can it be compensated with a different Gear ratio? :confused:

Now comes one of the main questions i had. If i go this route, and I later purchase a Spider 9 housing, and the Hi9, I can just use the shafts and ARB i have already right? I can sell the other ring and pinion sets at that time to recoupe some of the costs and then it would just be the pain of getting the suspension set up with the new pinion angle?

I'll get into more of the front Axle later on when I have some more time but at this point I'm just trying to get a plan of attack on this whole thing.

At any rate this is the start. Please feel free to post the problems with my thinking as I'm sure I'm going to have a lot by the time I'm thru.

Thanks.

[tmorgan4]

What's your motive for wanting a high pinion rear? It's not a bad idea, but I definitely don't see it as a necessity. Although a Hi-9 is probably not going to break with your setup, a regular low-pinion case is going to give you a stronger rear end.

[CurleyMan]

I am sure there are many of us who would love to abuse a 1 ton spider 9. The axle is designed for serious competition rigs. It has 1 ton outer hubs and a housing built to suit. Setting this axle up with a high 9 and ARB will cost about six thousand bucks (I am not guesstimating). The axle shafts will not work with any other axle. The hi9 thirdmember uses different gears then a stock 9. An ARB for a 35 spline ford 9 is very close to 900 bucks and cannot be found for less then 800.

Do whatever you like but IMO you could set up an amazing ford 9 or 14 bolt for under 2000. Go to a rockracing or rockcrawling competition you will see the spider 9's but also the 14 bolt, dana 60's and ford 9's. I promise you will see 100,000 dollar rigs with 2000 dollar rear axles. The ford 9, 14 bolt, and eaton axles are tough enough for anything you will build in the future. IMHO don't waste your money on bling you don't need. The extra 4,000 could pay for hydro assist, t-case gears, beadlocks, and other cool chit.

[Dowser]

What's your motive for wanting a high pinion rear? It's not a bad idea, but I definitely don't see it as a necessity.

Well basically, I just wanted to keep he pinion and u joint away from hitting all kinds of shit which I will most likely do often enough. I've kind of had the idea in my head that I'd like to be the guy that can show up to the trail and wheel the truck like I stole it, (in a tread lightly way :rolleyes: ) and still come home without breaking anything so I figure what better way to protect it then having it high up and out of the way. But that was sort of why I decided I would try and do it in a 3 stage process cause If I could get away with a nice beefy regular 9" that wont break even under the punishment that i will be putting it through then that would have been fine too. I just figured if I could buy the shafts and what not and it would all be interchangeable to some degree that it would be a good route to go if I wanted the option down the road.

The axle shafts will not work with any other axle.

Alright. I was unsure of that as I mentioned initially. Well then that changes Everything obviously.

The hi9 thirdmember uses different gears then a stock 9.

Ya I knew that. the 3rd comes pre-assembled from the factory with the gear ratio of your choice from what they offer.

IMHO don't waste your money on bling you don't need. The extra 4,000 could pay for hydro assist, t-case gears, beadlocks, and other cool chit.

Fair enough. And I agree. So since the crazy scheme i had is not going to become a reality due to lack of winning lottery tickets and non mix matching parts, I'll have to try another route.

Since I've never had anything under my foot other then a VERY LIGHTLY modified 4x4, I don't know what sort of strength shafts and so on i would need. Basically, When thinking of this I always like to think of the absolute worst case scenario, multiply it by like 5, and then that should be enough. :crazy: On a serious note, I just don't want to the guy having to either hold everyone else up cause my shit broke, or have to come up with some sort of recovery scenario on the mere fact that i went on the cheap and bought enough to get me rolling. I know things happen and that it will happen to me at one point, Its unavoidable, but I'd like to still make that my main priority when building it.

so... a new plan then.

-Regular Ford housing,
-9+ housing by currie, or the Yukon HD 3.250" Nodular iron housing(worth it? if not I hear that some 3rds aren't so hot. apparently they have some that are stronger that have a "N" on them somewhere?)
-35 spline yukon shafts, and ring & pinion(have no idea if this is overkill or not, but again I want to Beat the Living Piss out of it and have it hold up on 35's.)
-An ARB

I know the Pinion Yoke, and U-joints can be beefed up as well and i think they have a big bearing pinion support option but I'm not sure which one applies cause theres a steel 1350 version with 35 spline(that goes with the 35 spline R&P,Shafts set?) so that as well, just haven't looked whats out there enough yet.

So many damn options out there and when your new to it.... man, its mind blowing.

Is this a better way to go? Thoughts?

[CurleyMan]

some like currie some don't it's a personal choice. The high pinion third they sell is really a ford 8.8 hybrid and not as strong as the classic 9". Dragging a pinion and yoke on the rocks isn't as bad as ya think. 35 spline moser shafts are strong enough IMO.

[Ryan Gee]

The Currie's only go up to 4.88's...

[Dowser]

So the Yukon Third Case would be a better option then it would seem. Alright.

[CurleyMan]

strange engineering is the recommended aftermarket ford 9 supplier. They design and build nodular iron third members.

[Bill Potter]

anyone checked into Mark Williams Racing prices? They will build a nine inch center with whatever tubes, outers and shafts you want.

I'm sure it's not cheap as they build many of the top drag racing axles.

[tmorgan4]

Mark Williams builds some very nice stuff. They have some reasonable priced stuff and some crazy expensive stuff. I didn't realize they were local until recently.

[Dowser]

What do you guys think of these for the Long arm Links in the Rear and Up front. More Articulation then Heim/Johnny joints and they are a bit better with the shock loads. Added bonus of EASY adjustments without having to take shit apart.

Neato. (http://www.quadratec.com/products/16500_6000.htm)

Those of you not sure how they work or what they are here's an article i found to describe how they work better.

Nth Degree Gyro-Joints. (Currently owned by AEV) (http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/suspension/129_0603_2005_jeep_rubicon_unlimited_suspension_in stall/index.html)

[Allen Cox]

Those look pretty cool, actually. Kinda wish that they had a safety built into them of sorts. Even if a heimy broke, it would play hell tearing out of the mount.

[ChefTyler]

Just because I can...they're Nth degree, not 9th :D

[SteeevO]

Dowser... what truck do you have?

[Dowser]

*looks around foolishly* Currently............. none... hahaha I'm in the process of shopping for THE ONE.... a 95 Pathfinder, Black, preferably with a Manual but I'll take a Auto if everything else is fine. Reason its taking me so long is cause Im up in Canada where the Vehicle frames are shit. Has something to do with the fact that Nissan used a different kind of recycled metal for the frames for a few that years....

Up here we salt out roads heavily and the frames don't hold up. Looking for one in the states and found quite a few already but theres always something that ends up being shitty so I just pass on them. Working on a new prospect right now just waiting on an email. This will be my 3rd Pathfinder and I want to start it off right from the beginning so getting everything ready for a Solid Axle swap up front and swapping out the rear as well.

On a different note, I just looked up what a Pro Rock 60 would cost just for fuck of it cause it has more clearance then a D44 and just for the BARE HOUSING......

Prepare to shit on the floor. (http://www.dynatrac.com/products_prorock60.html) :poospray:

Talk about retarded. That option is clearly out. Not that I would need a 60 anyway, but was just thinking of clearance.

[Dowser]

I Plan on having 30 spline chromo Axles up Front so I'm guessing I'll need something with the same Min/Max diameter in the rear? Not sure if any 9"s came with stock shafts that may work. I know some came with 28 spline ones but I thought i read somewhere they came with some 30-31's or something like that and I'm not sure if the Min/max is similar.

Someone on the Pirate Forums mentioned to me that this makes absolutely no difference at all. I have no reason not to believe him as I know much less then him I'm sure, but for some reason... I keep picturing it my head like this.

Engine turning the flywheel, Tranny turning the transfer case, transfer case turning the rear drive shaft and front drive shaft while in 4hi, (at this point the front and rear should be turning the same speed I would think?) Then into your Axles where if they are ARB Locked, they are gonna turn whatever your gear ratio is, Hubs locked and now HERE's where I think the shaft Min Max diameter would make your wheels want to turn at different speeds. Apparently from what this guy says thats not the case, but I still cant seem to picture it any different. What am I seeing wrong here?

[DamnHippie]

The shafts (and thus everything attached to them, wheels, etc) are turning at the same RPM no matter what their diameter.

The time when the diameter of a rotating object affects speed is when something is in contact with the outside surface of the rotating object. In that case, a larger diameter means a larger linear speed on the outside circumference. This is why tire sizes need to match pretty closely when in 4wd -- if they were different sizes their outside edges that are touching the road would be moving at different linear speeds, even though they're moving at the same RPM.

[CurleyMan]

Yes all of your shafts will turn the same speed trust me. I would not recommend installing 30 spline outers. In my opinion it is much better to break an outer shaft then an inner thus the 19 spline being a little thinner sheer a little easier. You can try it but I highly recommend purchasing a long magnet.

A ford 9" or 14 bolt will spank that pro rock everytime just FYI. Alex and I Ford 9 and 14 bolt both have more clearance then a 44.

[ChefTyler]

Yes all of your shafts will turn the same speed trust me. I would not recommend installing 30 spline outers. In my opinion it is much better to break an outer shaft then an inner thus the 19 spline being a little thinner sheer a little easier. You can try it but I highly recommend purchasing a long magnet.

A ford 9" or 14 bolt will spank that pro rock everytime just FYI. Alex and I Ford 9 and 14 bolt both have more clearance then a 44.

The 14 bolt only has more clearance after shaving the diff, ya can't just bolt in a stock 14 bolt and have more clearance than a 44.

[Dowser]

DamnHippie. Thanks. That makes more sense now. In fact looking at it more clearly now I kind of feel rather retarded to have asked it in the first place but whatever.

CurleyMan. I'll definitely keep that in mind while I'm doing my research. But I was also liking that bit of information that ChefTyler mentioned in the "Another Axle Question" Topic about the Hub Fuse. Wouldn't that still be the best option? And thanks for the Info about the Ford 9" and 14 bolt. I didn't realize that once they were shaved they could have more clearance then a D44.

ChefTyler. Thanks for being Thorough. If I hadn't known that already I would have definitely wondered about that.

I'm pretty much sold on a standard 9" on the rear for sure. Just how much I want to build it up is the question now. Are the Third member Cases like the one from Yukon, or Strange Engineering worth buying for this application or would the stock case be plenty strong enough? The Moser Shafts seem to be the same price for 35 spline as they would for anything else and the 35 spline ARB I looked at from 4wheelparts.com (http://www.4wheelparts.com/Drivetrain-Differential/ARB-Air-locker-Locking-Differential.aspx?t_c=12&t_s=237&t_pt=5589&t_pl=406) is only like 70 bucks more then the 31 spline version so might as well go that route I'm thinking. The Ring and Pinion's seem to be the same price whether I buy a 28 spine or 35 spline version from Randy's Ring and Pinion. (http://www.ringpinion.com/PartsList.aspx?SearchMode=Diff&TypeID=4&Type=Ford&DiffID=29&DiffName=Ford+9.0&CatID=10&CatName=Rings+%26+Pinions&CatType=Sub-Differential)