Dual winch? Yay or Nay?

[soccerbrace]

Alright, so I am going to have a lot of custom work done as far as tubing, and before I get to it, I was wondering. for those of you who have winches, do you wish that you had a rear winch? Do you wish you had a removable winch with hard wired disconnects? There are times when wheeling when your buddy behind you has trouble on an obstacle and it is not feasible to turn around. Addtionally, it is not feasible to strap him either. So, what would you do? Get a second winch so you do not have to worry about it? get a removable mount like a hitch mount similar to what Ian has? Or just run one and say fahk it and deal?

Weight is not an issue

[OdiN]

Well two things - removable setup is nice so you can swap it to the rear and pull someone up something.

However - having two of them - you could tie off the front to something and winch from the rear if you are in a situation where it's slippery and trying to pull someone would end up with your own rig getting drug back.

But you could always swap to the rear and hook a strap up to the front if needed too.

[CurleyMan]

I have never ever needed a winch in the rear. If the occasion arises all you
Need to do is strap them to the back of the truck and use the winch to assist both vehicles forward. Of coarse both vehicles should be in gear helping the winch. I really wish I had a rear suck winch but that's totally different.

[Stubby~CC]

The removable hitch mount thing like Ian has is the shit. It's really nice to be able to move it around when you need to. He even built a mount in the bed to hold it out of the way if front/rear approach/departure angles are a concern, like in Moab. If you're going custom, it should be easy enough to incorporate receiver tubes.

[Packman5280]

i agree with martin. ian and ryan have removable winches and they are nice. i've had to winch someone that was behind me when i had my landcruiser, i just put the cable though a snatch block on a tree in front of me and ran it under the truck to the guy behind me, worked great.

[Alpine Spirit]

Yeah if your looking for dual winch access.. that setup Ryan and Ian has is AWESOME!!!! No need for two.

[soccerbrace]

Maybe someone has pics or Ryan could chime in?

[Casper]

I like the dual winch set up. The movable one is nice, but since I already have a solid mount on the front I am planning a solid one in the rear when I build my new rear bumber. Main reason for me is since I tow a trailer everywhere I wheel, it is not always easy or practicle to turn the X around or find a tree and attach a snatch block if I winch the trailer up something. Granted I have only had to do it twice, but it sure would have been nice to have a rear mount those two times.

Casper
:bannana:

Oh, I also have my portable "furry" winch that goes with me. He has pulled the trailer a few times as well. :crazy:

[soccerbrace]

Ben, the situation I am talking about is say you have an obstacle in front of you , but your buddy is 40 feet down the trail stuck on another obstacle. What if up and to the left is the only option for you, and straight is the only option for your buddy? Pulling would be a PITA and you would be chafing on trees while not pulling them straight.

After all this discussion, I think removable is the way to go.

[OdiN]

Make sure it can unbolt off yours and go straight onto mine. Then you'll be good :D

[Bill Potter]

Most times turning around or moving the winch is not much different as far as how easy the pull will be.

On behind the rocks last year I used the rear winch to lower everyone down the cliff they call white knuckle hill. Front or rear would have been the same until I was driving down (last). Had I not been able to have it on the rear we would have spent a bunch of time rigging up pulleys so we could have gotten another trucks winch cable to the rear of my truck and lower me down. As it was it was an easy thing because I could lower myself.

I wanted a removable winch because I use it on the Ford in the winter if/when I get stuck getting into our cabin. Most times there is not another truck around to pull me out. If I had to pull from the front it could take forever because I would be pulling it deeper into the snow drift.

And one other point not mentioned....I like being able to move the weight from the front to the back of the truck. When I build out the back it will have a storage mount in the tube bed.

[T-BONE35]

There is a mount that you can use on a hitch receiver.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31dDRXlp9CL._SL500_AA280_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.com/BullDog-Receiver-MountUniversal-winches-pattern/dp/B000KJ1L3G&usg=__CBdSBDR22sCbO6CHA7ywSPkG7VY=&h=280&w=280&sz=8&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=BtnLRyFk6CkF0M:&tbnh=114&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhitch%2Bwinch%2Bmount%26um%3D1%26hl%3 Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26sa%3DN

[JeffW]

Dual. Removables are mostly functional, but are a pain in the ass and don't always work. When I'm winching, I've got enough to worry about...

My uncle Mike has dual on his defender 90 and has probably used the rear one more than the front one. I will install a rear one whenever I replace my rear bumper.

[Reserector]

I have never ever needed a winch in the rear. If the occasion arises all you
Need to do is strap them to the back of the truck and use the winch to assist both vehicles forward. Of coarse both vehicles should be in gear helping the winch. I really wish I had a rear suck winch but that's totally different.

That has been my experience, too. Mine is removable and can be used in the back, but I have yet to need it back there. I have done as Ben described a few times.

I use a snatch block to pull off-angle, and a small come-along to pull sideways (off of trees) or to pull small trees away from a rig.

I suppose a self-recovery in the backwards direction would be about the only time you would need a rear winch.

I voted 'single' because I think it is plenty.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd110/Reserector_/Winch/Scouting0800507001.jpg

[Packman5280]

i've seen ryan's winch work wonders, hooked up to someone else's truck, in moab where there is no place to hook your truck. it was very nice to have around

[JeffW]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the disparity between a class 3 hitch (rated at 5000 lbs) and a 9000 lb winch.

[Ric]

well theres Pros and Cons to everything.
Removable winch: well sometimes your rear bumper might be under water, snow, or just not accessable, or you may be on a steel hill, not allowing room to mount that big bulky mount.
Small perm. rear mount: if done right, it will fit up under the bed, with a Syn. line, the fairlead is small, would be much more accesable and so much easier to use.
Just one winch on the front: would be a lot cheaper, and with a Snatch block or two, and a line extension, you could winch anyone from any angle, plus your saving so much weight and money, lol
I have been thinking about my rear bumper, and possibly putting a small winch, maybe even a ATV winch under there, but its just a "thought" right now lol

[Stubby~CC]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the disparity between a class 3 hitch (rated at 5000 lbs) and a 9000 lb winch.

Sometimes I wish you'd think more before you speak. A hitch rating is based on pulling a load down a highway for very long periods of time, not on a 30 second pull. Also, there's a huge safety factor built in to that load rating. Think about it, would you want someone pulling 5000lbs down the highway if 5100 lbs would cause the hitch to come flying off?

[Bill Potter]

x2...a 5000lb tow load will put more then a 5000lb load on the hitch when your driving over bumps, speeding up, slowing down, ect.

During use its likely to see shock loads far over the 5000lb rating.

[JeffW]

Sometimes I wish you'd think more before you speak. A hitch rating is based on pulling a load down a highway for very long periods of time, not on a 30 second pull. Also, there's a huge safety factor built in to that load rating. Think about it, would you want someone pulling 5000lbs down the highway if 5100 lbs would cause the hitch to come flying off?

I would say that's common knowledge.

However, a 9000# winch can exert a sh1tload of force. I just feel better with a more substantial winch mount. As Bill mentioned, they also can hurt approach angles or be unusable in some situations. The other thing is that the design of the hitch receiver is based on tongue force and push/pull into the receiver. Most hitch receiver winch plates I've seen have the winch mounted above the receptacle. That puts additional torque on the tube holding it.

I looked into them years ago and decided on a winch bumper. I got flamed for buying a TJM, but I have yet to see one with a better frame connection. It's also light.

I'm sure they work for some folks. I just don't like them.

[CurleyMan]

I hear ya James I've just never seen the use for one. Infact i dont think ive ever seen one used on the trail and ive seen a crap load of recoveries. When your recovering another vehicle ya need to be tied off to something anyway so..... I guess go with removable everyone is pretty excited about it, but gusset the shot out of that reciever hitch cause it's going to need it! Also 9,000 lbs is nothing put a snatch block on it and your pulling 18,000 lbs that should pull must peoples bumpers right off. I've pulled 3 semi tractors out, suspended the vehicle and ripped a transfer case in two. Winches exert an incredible amount of force.

[Ryan Gee]

On my Pathy the main reason it was removable is because I only had one winch. It was used on my trailer probably 90% of the time. It was also nice to take it off to be stored in the garage when not in use. If a guy buys a really nice 900 dollar tool, why would he only use it in one location, for one purpose?

On the reciever rating deal. Just make the winch mount out of a thinner metal then the vehicle end. Sure it may bend, however the hitch would be good for pulling trailers later without worries. We are worried about receivers when an Xterra weighs how much???

Umm... so these Xterra bumpers with the winch up high and the mount for the bumper really low on a set of frame horns isn't jacked up? Oh lets make a 300lb bumper and hang it off thin Nissan frame steel then yank the shit out of it with a 9000lb winch with that huge lever effect pulling on the frame horns???? Oh ya lets add another 2-3inches of lever to the issue with a body lift...... :bs:

There are consequences to yanking on anything with the force a winch puts out. Winch with that in mind so your bumper/receiver doesn't slingshot into the trees. Maybe taking you out on the way.

[Chainsaw]

Cheap come alongs work great for pulling from the rear.:rainfro:

http://www.hooverfence.com/tools/144SB6.jpg

[JeffW]

......so these Xterra bumpers with the winch up high and the mount for the bumper really low on a set of frame horns isn't jacked up?......

Great point. That's why I love my TJM (and no BL). It distributes the torque on the bumper back to the frame tiedowns. It als0 only weighs about 70# (150 with winch).

http://www.whitescarver.com/jeffscarver/Xterra/TJM02.JPG

[ChefTyler]

I looked into them years ago and decided on a winch bumper. I got flamed for buying a TJM, but I have yet to see one with a better frame connection. It's also light.

I flamed you for buying a TJM and it had nothing to do with the way it mounts to the frame or the way the winch mounts to the bumper.

[soccerbrace]

Well, my bumper (shrock) is sold. I never had a winch on there and When I put the stock bumper back on in the mean time, the nut that is tacked on the inside came off. Weight will not be an issue because I am probably going to go with a coil setup front and rear, and I am probably going to cage the engine. I am still undecided to be honest. The thing I think I dread the most is carrying that heavy bastard front and rear, and all of that BS. That is why I was considering getting a cheapo winch for the rear and a decent one up front. Man. This is a difficult decision....!

[Reserector]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the disparity between a class 3 hitch (rated at 5000 lbs) and a 9000 lb winch.

My junk was designed and built specifically for winching. I have a drop hitch and wiring, but I rarely tow.
I can't say how much a commercially made hitch can handle. They are not triangulated and are often thin-walled material. Probably alright for straight pulls, but they do not strengthen the rear frame area like a custom unit.

I am just relieved that no one has started with the hitch pin strength argument. :rolleyes:

[CurleyMan]

hehehe post this idea up on co4x4 and there will be plenty who chime in with sheered hitch pin stories. Hitch pins are not that thick and yes they can be cut in two like butter if stressed enough. It's the one reason why people discourage the use of the hitch mounted D ring thing jeepers buy. I didn't even think about how it would apply to this hitch mounted winch idea you guys have untill you mentioned it. My guess is that a winch wouldn't fly very far if the hitch pin sheared.

[Bill Potter]

Ben....I call bull shit....If the pin sheared at 5000 lbs people would be loosing trailers on the highway every day.

The shock load of a 5000 lb trailer going from being pulled to hard on the brakes has got to be at least 5g's. That would be 25,000+ lbs of force, far more then the cable on the winch can handle (and a slow build up of pressure not a quick shearing action).

Also you see 10000lb back hoes being pulled all the time on just a pintle stuffed into a receiver on a dump truck.

[CurleyMan]

A five thousand on trailer is not going to take 25,000 lbs of force to move. I doubt it takes anywhere close to 4,000 lbs of force to move. Your not legally allowed to pull more then 3,000 lbs or 1/3 of the weight of the tow vehicle without trailer brakes.

The dump truck or heavy duty pintle hooks are not held in by a hitch pin! They are either manufactured into the frame or held on with a spring loaded 2" thick centered shank.

I really don't see how you guys think a five thousand LB trailer is going to exert more then five thousand lbs of force on the hitch. Hell I can push any of your vehicles on flat ground and I doubt that takes any more then 100 lbs of force.

Either way post the hitch pin question up on a site like pirate, co4x4 or some site were the members have experiance. It won't take long before you start to hear the horror stories.

[CurleyMan]

to pull a 5,000 on trailer and experiance 5,000 lbs of force at the hitch you would need to pull it straight up a 90 degree incline. If that were to be done with a half ton pickup the axle shafts would snap. I will never agree with the ronin idea that trailers regularly exceed the stress rating they are built for. I have been pulling trailer of all sizes my whole life and never once have u exceeded the hitch recievers tow rating. I have exceeded the tounge rating though and it was a stupid idea. Don't ask!

[OdiN]

Yeah 5,000 lbs of trailer isn't going to be exerting that much force because it's sitting on an axle/wheels itself which reduces the force it takes to pull it. Simple physics.

The only way you're going to exert that entire 5,000 lbs of force on your hitch is if you're dragging it on the ground behind you (and even then probably wouldn't be the entire amount) or maybe if while going down the road the trailer instantly stops which wouldn't happen.

Actually thinking of the hitch design, all of the force isn't going to be placed totally on the hitch pin either.

[CurleyMan]

Right Odin the hitch pin would only feel 100% of the pull if you had no tounge weight!

[OdiN]

It would be different with a winch though because it's not terribly heavy compared to the tounge weight of a trailer and the force is going to be more straight depending on how you're pulling. I don't know that I would just slap one into a hitch on the rear for any serious pulling. Probably would want something more integrated into your bumper that can distribute the load better.

[CurleyMan]

right and I don't think any of us should count on things being overbuilt. The manufacturer is only obligated to meet the rating they provided when you bought it.

[Reserector]

I....am....soooooo sorry. :(

I have done some tremendous pulls with my 8k and snatch block that required me to strap my truck to a tree via the rear hitch pin. I have yet to see signs of stress, let alone a failure.
Like Ben said, it wouldn't go far if it did.

[CurleyMan]

Oh yeah I've done it as well! I don't think anyone should get offended but more linkage in a system equals more room for failure. If a person wanted to beef it up he could drill a second hole for a second pin in his wich hitch.

[Bill Potter]

Again I call bull shit....they rate the hitch to deal with the stresses exerted by a 5000lb trailer...not just 5000lbs of stress....it's two different things.

No matter how tight the pin is inserted into the hole there is going to be slop and as the insert moves back and forth it will exert shock loads well past the weight of the trailer as it hammers back and forth on the pin.

A winch does not put shock load as it pulls...it's normally a constant building force which is far less stressful on the system.

Either way a grade 5 5/8" bolt has a shear strength of 23010 lbs. Because hitch pins are also grade 5 they carry a similar rating. And don't forget that the load is spread out over two shear locations so in a perfect system that rating would be doubled (46020 lbs).

http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners/index.asp

FYI...As for the back hoe's toed behind the dump truck....I have a standard 2 inch hitch insert in my garage that came off of one of these...it uses the same 5/8 pin and has a 20,000lb tow rating stamped into it.

Oh and I did a search on both pirate and Colorado 4x4...this has been hit on before in discussions about tow straps hooked over hitch pins....guess what...they all recommended a d-ring insert.

[Bill Potter]

Yeah 5,000 lbs of trailer isn't going to be exerting that much force because it's sitting on an axle/wheels itself which reduces the force it takes to pull it. Simple physics.

Your missing the part where an object in motion will remain in motion unless acted on by an outside force....the forces we are talking about here have nothing to do with gravity....But they have everything to do with the shear forces exerted by a 5000lb mass.

An extreme example...how many lbs per square inch does a 110 grain 45 slug exert when it hits a steel plate?

[Packman5280]

a few thousand i think. but where do you get 110gr .45? most that i see is like 180, 210, or 230.

[CurleyMan]

Good point Bill but our vehicles are not travelling 930fps and remember trailer brakes are manditory. I'm pretty sure there is a formula one could use to determine the stopping force needed. I bet it would be identical to the rolling resistance and required stopping force when compared to a 5,000 lb car

[CurleyMan]

60 mph = 88 fps

Let's work together and see if we can bust or backup this myth. I'd rather not argue and to be honest I am genuinley interested.

[CurleyMan]

Ok so a vehicle weighing 5000 lbs travelling 60 mph or 88 fps has 601727 ft lbs of stored "kinetic" energy.

[OdiN]

I'm not sure how to calculate how much of the total force is applied to the hitch pin itself. You've got force distributed to the actual hitch and support structure - which would differ based on the type of hitch, etc. There's a ton of variables.

Then is your hitch pin grade 5 or 8, and what diameter. Need to determine the max shear force it can withstand.

Then when you brake you are braking slowly - you don't have the entire weight of the trailer pushing at once because everything still has forward momentum - there is just the disparity between your vehicle stopping and the force that is putting on the trailer through the hitch. And you'd have to assume no trailer brakes if you want to think of a worst case type thing.

And I'm sure there's stuff I'm not even thinking of here.

Alright where's a bored Engineering major? :p

[CurleyMan]

well the calculated number is only one part of our equation! It would only apply if we ran the vehicle into a rock wall and stopped it instantly. We need to figure out at what rate the vehicle will decelerate. With the rate of deceleration and mass we should be able to come up with the force in ft lbs put against the hitch.

[CurleyMan]

The hitch pin is double sheer and I have yet to find that calculator.

[Bill Potter]

a few thousand i think. but where do you get 110gr .45? most that i see is like 180, 210, or 230.

It was just an example....I guessed....I think I was thinking about a .223 or 30 cal.

[Bill Potter]

The hitch pin is double sheer and I have yet to find that calculator.

Intuition tells me it should be double the single value....but in real life it's most likely some percentage of double the value and is effected on how far apart the shear points are.

[CurleyMan]

I bet your right Bill.

So I have come to the conclsion that a 5,000lb vehicle will come to a stop at around 150 feet. If we could figure out how fast it is decelerating the rest of the math is simple.

[Alex Topousis]

Two trains , each having a speed of 30 km/hr are headed at each other on the same track. A bird can fly 60 km/hr flies off the front of one train when they are 60 km apart and heads directly for the other train. On reaching the other train it flies directly back to the first train and so forth. how often did the bird poop in that distance?

[Bill Potter]

Hey...I didn't mean to start another negative thread...we have had enough of those....

My major point is that in reality your going to rip your frame apart or get killed by a snapping cable long before the hitch pin fails.

When I was in the Army the 5ton wrecker got stuck in the Georgia mud....they snapped the 4 shear pins that hold the PTO winch on the front trying to pull themselves out.

No idea how much force was involved but the shear pins were engineered to snap before the cable and most likely saved some lives.

[OdiN]

Two trains , each having a speed of 30 km/hr are headed at each other on the same track. A bird can fly 60 km/hr flies off the front of one train when they are 60 km apart and heads directly for the other train. On reaching the other train it flies directly back to the first train and so forth. how often did the bird poop in that distance?

African or European Swallow?

[Bill Potter]

I bet your right Bill.

So I have come to the conclusion that a 5,000lb vehicle will come to a stop at around 150 feet. If we could figure out how fast it is decelerating the rest of the math is simple.

I think just figuring out how much force it takes to stop it from 1 mph would suffice. The truck can't be more then one mph slower in the short amount of time it takes to remove all the slack in the system. After the slack is gone the force can't be any greater then the weight of the trailer.

[CurleyMan]

Bill you could totally be right. Wouldn't it be nice to know for sure?

If it takes the vehicle 8 seconds to stop within 150 feet that's an average decel rate of 18.5 fps.

[CurleyMan]

at a constant rate the trailer without brakes would exert 27,317 ft lbs against the hitch (if the tow vehicle were able to stop with the trailer in 8 seconds and 150 feet).

[OdiN]

8 seconds is pretty fast for that much weight too.

[CurleyMan]

exactly it's double the distance and double the time. 300 feet 16 seconds = 18.75 fps

11,000 foot lbs against the hitch during extream stopping with no trailer brakes.

With well adjusted trailer brakes no force should be applied against the hitch.

[JeffW]

The max you could exert on a 5000# trailer?...

Very simple calculation:

2000-04 Xterra stops in ~128 feet at 60mph.
Stop takes ~2.9s

60mph = ~27m/s
that makes the Xterras maximum deceleration equal:

27/2.9 = 13.4 m/s^2
or
137% of 1 "G"

Assuming the Xterra can exert 1.37Gs on a trailer -w- no brakes (it can't), that corresponds to 6850 lbs. Obviously, if the trailer has brakes, it's less. The X can't come close to that while cornering, accelerating or going uphill.

[Packman5280]

i have no idea what you guys just said. but good discussion, way to keep it civil. and i searched the pirate tech pages and didn't find anything, but i didn't click every link, maybe you guys will find something useful.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Towing/index.html

[Ryan Gee]

What they are saying Jamie is: "If a hen and a half could lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how many days would it take a one legged monkey to kick all the seeds out of a dill pickle?"

[Sully4x4]

What they are saying Jamie is: "If a hen and a half could lay an egg and a half in a day and a half, how many days would it take a one legged monkey to kick all the seeds out of a dill pickle?"

1 1/2? Either that or False...:confused:

[OdiN]

The correct answer is 42.

[Packman5280]

ah, ok i see. so like a lampshade is bigger than a cantelope, but you still can't use a door knob as a toaster.

[Ryan Gee]

Yessir! Exactly.

[Ryan Gee]

If a car was to stop fast enough to pull one G... a guy could stand on the windshield with a force of his weight. Sideways? I don't think a trailer pulling Xterra is going to accomplish that.

[JeffW]

If a car was to stop fast enough to pull one G... a guy could stand on the windshield with a force of his weight......

No.

If a car can stop with a G (it does), a person can't stand sideways. They could, momentarily, stand at a 45 degree angle.

arctan(1/1) = 45 degress

It would require infinity G's to stand sideways:

arctan(inf/1) = 90 degrees

[itsme1738]

ok.....now you kill me ryan.....tooo funny

[Packman5280]

dammit, what happened to the lampshade and the hen?

[CurleyMan]

I was a G in highschool then all of the sudden I was a B. I don't know what happened to the G thing.

Maybe it had something to do with OPP I just can't remember.

[Ryan Gee]

I think a B can turn into a G with a simple pluck and tuck cheerleader routine...

[Ryan Gee]

Ok.. so if one G is at a 45 degree angle.. .wouldn't the hitch be bound by the same force.. thus the pin getting the divergent force from the bind which would most certainly be less than the one G with a force that is 45 degrees off the force the pin is stopping. Plus most hitches have a drop built in that would bind things even a different direction. Thus the pin turns into a rotating point at which the force is taken out on each end of the receiver.

Ok.. so is this an egg and a half...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Boiled_double_yolked_eggs.jpg

[OdiN]

Radioactive Eggs!

[tbecktold]

ah, ok i see. so like a lampshade is bigger than a cantelope, but you still can't use a door knob as a toaster.

QOTD!

[Reserector]

Siamese chickens.

After over three years of extensive field testing, I conclude that a 5/8" hitch pin in a 2" receiver-style winch mount is more than adequate.

[JeffW]

Ok.. so if one G is at a 45 degree angle.. .wouldn't the hitch be bound by the same force.. thus the pin getting the divergent force from the bind which would most certainly be less than the one G with a force that is 45 degrees off the the force the pin is stopping. Plus most hitches have a drop built in that would bind things even a different direction. Thus the pin turns into a rotating point at which the force is taken out on each end of the receiver.

Really, this is a high school physics or college dynamics problem. Draw the FBD and you'll see where the forces on the trailer and hitch are.

[itsme1738]

do you guys know that the shear strenth of a 16 penny nail is 1 ton?

[Reserector]

I used to do weld testing on Challenger car lifts for the company I work for. The lift chain anchor in each post is pinned with a Ø 5/16" heat treated clevis pin. The chain is a multi-plate type, similar to a timing chain. If the weld was good, (it rarely failed before the pin) the pin would fail at just over 18,000 pounds of pull.

Now, try to convince me that a winch will shear a 5/8" pin, even if it is only mild steel such as ASTM A-36 at 36,000 psi yield.

[Allen Cox]

Yep, a hitch pin is strong enough.

Folks need to quit overthinking things.

Wheel 'em. If the pins weren't strong enough, you'd be seeing tons of videos on Youtube with all the pins sheering off, claiming leg shins left and right.

Considering what most tow hooks are held on with, what usually breaks on those? And what are they held on with? How much non-linear force are those things dealing with, and what mounting hardware is used there?

Stop overthinking it!

If this argument continues, I'll move it to the Incinerator. Warnings will follow.

Play on, play nice.

[OdiN]

Hey Allen - I don't think anyone is getting pissed here or anything - arguments can be good too, just causes people to stop and think. Nobody is calling anyone names or anything and it doesn't seem to me that anyone is upsetting anyone here.

[JeffW]

Yep, a hitch pin is strong enough.....


This is true. They are more than strong enough. However, it is the other vectors that are in question.

I can see two positive outcomes. Either somebody does the math (correctly), or we simply weigh the pro/cons.

I simply don't like hitch-mount winch adapters.

EDIT:

I don't have time to mess with drawing diagrams to clarify. However, I did find this diagram that I drew when buying the TJM (http://www.whitescarver.com/jeffscarver/Xterra/TJM03.JPG) bumper. Keep in mind that it doesn't address significant frictional forces between bolted surfaces.

http://www.whitescarver.com/jeffscarver/Xterra/TorqueShear.JPG

[CurleyMan]

I don't think any of us have been mean or nasty about anything. I may be sent to "time out" for saying this (really)! It's just a goofy thread and most of us are just having fun. This is an Adult website right? Posts like that from moderators make this site feel and look like kindergarden gone wrong. I thought this was a site we could openly discuss our ideas and opinions. Well since I will probably be punished for speaking out!


I still think hitch pins can fail.

[Allen Cox]

You're absolutely right Curly, this is an adult site. No, you won't be punished for saying anything like that at all.

But there are folks that tend to be more argumentative than not. We're trying to keep the arguments (you know the ones, I'm right, prove me wrong, etc.) down to a minimum so that threads can be seen openly.

When something goes to the Incinerator, it starts looking like a mini Pirate. And that won't be allowed to continue.

Moving things to the Incinerator is a last resort, but those that get it sent there will be warned for it. It's just that simple.

Whatever someone's feelings are about someone else here on the board (you and me) have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

If there was no moderation here at all, then you would've killed someone on here a while ago, figuratively of course. So yes, moderation will continue, but it will be kept to a minimum. The point of moderators is to keep the adults being adults.

Don't let your feelings be hurt if a moderator steps in and says "Be cool" once in a while.

Now this is a thread on opinions for dual winches. Trying to prove someone is smarter or someone can look something up on the intarweb isn't the point. Have a debate, argue a bit, but like I said, if it goes sideways, it will get moved.

[Reserector]

Yeah, what he said. And don't forget to allow for the circumfrencial section of modulus with regard to shear-induced catastrophic divergence. That is REALLY what we are talking about, here.

[Packman5280]

Yeah, what he said. And don't forget to allow for the circumfrencial section of modulus with regard to shear-induced catastrophic divergence. That is REALLY what we are talking about, here.

eggs. and a toaster.

[soccerbrace]

Holy crap! If a hitch pin breaks on me, I will get 2 of them or just get a bigger, stronger one.....simple :)

I think I am changing my mind to dual. I am strong but a winch is an awkward shape, and so is the terrain that I will be on. if that bitch falls on my foot, I will be crippled for life son. Dual it is.

[OdiN]

pansy....

:p

[soccerbrace]

Yup!!!!!

[Reserector]

Single. Real men only go forward. :cool:

[bogof]

I just realized I didn't vote on this.

My vote is you need a rubalator.

In case you haven't heard of it, it rubalates. They help in every situation, including cooking.

[Allen Cox]

The only time you'd need a winch in back is when your date is....

Oh snap!

[Ric]

Single. Real men only go forward. :cool:

now thats just classic :D

[JeffW]

Single. Real men only go forward. :cool:

Good point.

Your truck is sweet. What does "Reserector" mean?

Just in case anyone needs it:

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/pts/987905395.html

Edit:

Cheapo on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RAMSEY-REP8000-12-VOLT-WINCH-with-CONTROL-BOX-Jeep-4x4_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1171Q7c66Q3a2 Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3 a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem 130286513783QQitemZ130286513783QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5 fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

I am tempted to buy the top one for the rear. Obviously, I don't think it's an optimal solution. However, not a bad one (I don't have a rear winch bumper) IMO.

.

[Raggs]

For the most part you can turn a rig around to pull someone else up and when you can't you can back down with your winch attach to something solid and use a tow strap between you and who needs your help. This past winter My club made a train to pull my a__ up a hill, it worked great. It's time to replace my tires. not much left of the Mudders.

[Bill Potter]

I still like being able to move mine....I found it very useful in a real life situation again yesterday when I was stuck on a big log and every one else was busying pulling someone else out. 5 minutes and I was on my way in about the same time others would have been able to start helping.

Yes there were other options but the quickest and easiest was to move it to the back of the truck and pull myself out. A duel setup would have been the best, but at a trade off of cost and weight.

Remember every thing is a trade off in this hobby.

[JeffW]

I still like being able to move mine....I found it very useful in a real life situation again yesterday when I was stuck on a big log and every one else was busying pulling someone else out. 5 minutes and I was on my way in about the same time others would have been able to start helping.

Yes there were other options but the quickest and easiest was to move it to the back of the truck and pull myself out. A duel setup would have been the best, but at a trade off of cost and weight.

Remember every thing is a trade off in this hobby.

Right now, I only have the one in front. The other day, I was stuck in some DEEP snow. I would have preferred to have pulled myself rearward, but only have the front winch right now. I was thinking how much I need a new rear bumper!...

It was fun to bash back through the snow bank, though! :flamer:

In the absence of two winches, a removable is more versatile. That rear bumper is gonna be spendy. Perhaps I should look for a winch in cradle on craigslist. Then I could relocate it to the bumper when I get it made.

[Dallas]

There are times when wheeling when your buddy behind you has trouble on an obstacle and it is not feasible to turn around. Addtionally, it is not feasible to strap him either. So, what would you do?



tell him to buy a winch:crazy: :D

[Stumpalump]

Run you winch cable under you rig to the rear. Simple. No need for a rear winch on a trail rig. Your axels acked as cable guides because they are low. If I had an extra winch i'd never mount it on the rear. If you allready have a nice aluminum fairlead then buy 1 foot of preety synthetic line and dangle a nice winch hook off of it too add bling. Then when you get stuck use your front winch. After all this sport is all about the bling. Right?

[Bill Potter]

Run you winch cable under you rig to the rear. Simple. No need for a rear winch on a trail rig. Your axels acked as cable guides because they are low. If I had an extra winch i'd never mount it on the rear. If you allready have a nice aluminum fairlead then buy 1 foot of preety synthetic line and dangle a nice winch hook off of it too add bling. Then when you get stuck use your front winch. After all this sport is all about the bling. Right?


Ya..Great idea....it will work great when your buried to the axles in mud or snow!

[Allen Cox]

Still, of all the times that a person actually uses a winch, having one in the rear is just another way to spend money. I don't think I know anyone with dual winches, and when I needed a tow from behind (high centered on my gas tank), the friend I was wheeling with was able to get behind me and winch from the back.

Unless you're planning on wheeling alone, a rear winch just isn't necessary.

[JeffW]

...Unless you're planning on wheeling alone, a rear winch just isn't necessary.

I do it all the time. Sometimes I don't know I'm gonna be wheeling until I'm on my way. A lot of times, I'm just exploring; if I find something good, I'll show friends later. Sometimes my friends want to go, but have a busted rig. My personal experiences with rear winches are that those that have them use them as much, if not more than the front one. Those that don't (have one) rely on a friend...

[Bill Potter]

Still, of all the times that a person actually uses a winch, having one in the rear is just another way to spend money. I don't think I know anyone with dual winches, and when I needed a tow from behind (high centered on my gas tank), the friend I was wheeling with was able to get behind me and winch from the back.

Unless you're planning on wheeling alone, a rear winch just isn't necessary.

That is a great point...but I will counter that even when weeling with others I do my best to be self suficent. It's nice if others can help but I should not plan them as my only way out.

I actually normally carry enough stuff that I can survive and walk out if needed.

[Reserector]

I have proof to back up my previous statements about removable winches, hitch pins, and things that go "bump" in the night.

Some distant relatives came to visit. Poor Harvey didn't swing wide enough to clear the ditch, and learned that a Winnebago can't flex.

I tried a strap first, then a direct winch pull. What finally worked was strapping the Flaming Marshmallow to an oak tree, and doubling back to the truck with a snatch block. Removable winch, pinned with a single Ø5/8" pin. The rear (anchor) strap was attached by sticking the loop into the receiver and pinning it with a Ø5/8" hitch pin.

I ran the cable out, all but six wraps on the spool. I had to use heavy 1/2" chain to make up the remaining distance back to my frame. Both batteries were switched into the circuit, to give maximum available amperage.

The winch all but stalled with this setup. The Winnie had wheels in the air and the axle was on the pavement when I started pulling it.

Theoretically, if this winch produces 8k, that means that the front receiver was bearing 8K. The frame (where the hook attached) was bearing 8K. The snatch block at the motorhome frame was bearing 16K. The tree, strap and rear receiver pin were also bearing 16K.

Nothing bent or failed. Good enough for me.




http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd110/Reserector_/HPIM1504.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd110/Reserector_/HPIM1505.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd110/Reserector_/HPIM1506.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd110/Reserector_/HPIM1507.jpg

[JeffW]

Nice!

I am shocked a winch could pull that behemoth out!

.

[Packman5280]

nice work!

just a thought for next time, throw a towel or tarp or a few jackets on the winch line. that way if something breaks, heavy hunks are less likely to fly and hit someone. this is especially important when you have the pull doubled with a snatch block.

but nice job, hard pulls like that can be kinda fun, i had some memorable ones when i had a winch on my old landrcuiser. it's amazing what you get into just because you have a winch.